Margo: 00:01 Welcome to Sales Leaders Talks brought to you by Callpage. This podcast is for sales and marketing leaders who want to lead their people to success, do more, better and faster each day. Our guests are experienced sales and marketing experts who share their secrets and strategies on everything from team coaching and leadership to marketing and sales tech solutions. Before we move forward, ask yourself this question, "Do you want to excel as a leader and help your company grow?" If your answer is yes, let's get started.
Margo: Hello and welcome to the Sales Leaders Talks. Today my guest is Thomas Vosper, the Retail Director of the Pricesearcher, the UK's largest search engine. With Thomas we're going to discuss what is the best formula for the sales compensation plan in your organization and what's stands behind success of sales reps, what types of personalities define the way they are going to behave in their career. Apart from that, we're also talking about the future of sales, how technology will enable sales leaders, eliminate road blocks in sales teams, get the most value from sales calls. And also we're asking this question, "Will technology substitute sales reps in the future?" So welcome to the show today.
Margo: Hi, Thomas.
Thomas: Hey, Margo!
Margo: Welcome to Sales Leaders Talks!
Thomas: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
Margo: So I've noticed that you've got quite a lot of experience in ecommerce and that's extremely interesting to talk with someone who has emerged himself in the field for quite a long time and can share their perspective on ecommerce. So tell few words about yourself, introduce yourself. How did you turn out to be in especially in that?
Thomas: Sure, sure. So, um, so yeah, so my background in ecommerce... I spent just under seven years at a US retailer called Amazon back when we used to talk about it being a big business worth about $11,000,000,000 as an attempt to give us credibility. I was part of a small team of people who are bringing on retailers to sell on the Amazon marketplace. And then the number of products that people take as a given now that exist around their fulfillment options, that payment gateways and all other services. So I spent a decent at the time that in the business, like I said, from a team that was around about six of us to a team that ended up to be about 250. And then I moved over to another well-known retailer Tesco who also attempting to build a marketplace.
Thomas: So I spent a couple of years building a third-party offering on the TESCO direct site. And then for anyone for Polish listeners, you may be aware that the next place I ended up was as a company called Inpost who I believe is very famous in Poland. I was there for a little while launching the first UK retailer on the Inpost service. And for the last two years I've been working with Pricesearcher engine for all of the world's prices, which you might think exists in a typical search engines. But every other channel, like a Google shopping price comparison site or marketplaces are all paid to play for retailers. So I joined this number five into this business with half a dozen retailers on our platform and we are now two years into our journey of trying to capture all of the world prices and we have about 20 staff, 10,000 retailers on the platform, one and a half billion products. We are live in 12 countries and we are continuing to grow. We're starting to generate some revenue and we've started to build out a greater business development front facing team. So it's all systems go and a time of great change for us.
Margo: Yeah. That sounds like a solid, extensive experience in sales. So what did shape you into a sales leader? How did you get into sales? I mean emotionally and mentally do like your profession, what actually shaped you in a successful salesperson?
Thomas: Yeah. I find it really interesting salesperson discussion because I think suddenly here in the UK there's often a very bad perception of certain careers like salespeople. And because we've all met a bad salesperson and I had this conversation with a friend at the weekend and uh, and I said to them, "Listen, there's no such thing as someone in sales – everyone's in sales, everyone when you talk to your partner about what you're going to have for dinner that night and you've got different ideas and one of you has to convince the other one to go with your suggestion or when you're picking your holiday destination, everyone's in sales and has an end goal in mind." It was obviously, it was quite ironic when she agreed with me afterwards after I'd had this conversation and then realized that actually I managed to convince her my way of thinking was probably right.
Thomas: So I think for me,I've always been drawn to roles and people in roles who aren't trying to sell something, who find a need for something and then go and discover where that need exists in the market and then have very open, transparent conversations with who they find is the best fit. I don't think there is a natural talent or role for sales, I think that increasingly sales is being bundled into a mixture of understanding, understanding people's position is a mixture of kind of outbound, about marketing, about networking, about a message. I'll come onto the robots and the AI in a minute about how that's going to challenge us.
Margo: Yeah, definitely. So as you were talking about this natural skillset, uh, I was thinking about what could actually motivates sales people to sell better and to be more effective at what they are doing. Is that only the profession that they are so keen on or it's a compensation plan that's they also look for, for money. As like I talked to some leaders and they tell me my sales people their main priority is how they are compensated. If everything is in order with the compensation plan, then sales representatives are gonna produce the right results and hit the right numbers. Do you agree with that? Do you think that compensation plan is number one and it's the main motivator for salespeople?
Thomas: Yeah, it's interesting. I think the different types of people who work within sales and the different personalities are often drawn to different companies have different objectives and obviously you see from my career working in businesses like Amazon and Tesco, they don't tend to lend themselves towards a kind of a short term hit your targets. It's very much viewed as a bigger, longer-term opportunity. When I originally joined Amazon, Amazon had people in the sales team who were commissioned to bring on retailers onto the platform. Now that short term view of hitting a target regardless against all means of bringing someone onto the platform could and, well, I mean it has an Amazon seems to have done okay so far in terms of their marketplace but could have compromised the quality of the retailers coming onto the platform, could have compromised their ability to fulfill orders or for them to meet the high expectations that Amazon had as a retailer and as a platform.
Thomas: There are a few things to consider when you think about how sales people are motivated. I think there are a number of roles where, the goals of the business are somewhat of a numbers game and require salespeople to generate a level of churn and hit a target and they can be motivated by money, but I'm always reluctant to look at a commission structure. I think that there are businesses that are succeeding right now that are pushing out a customer-centric message and at all times thinking about putting the customer first. I find that challenges the idea of paying someone on results because when you pay someone a commission to close a deal, I'm and I regularly have this argument with business leaders, I can't see how in that transaction you're putting the customer first.
Thomas: Even if as an individual, as a business, you believe you have the best product and the best solution for that customer. If you are closing them by the end of the month because that affects your income and then in turn affects your family life or whatever, then it is not possible to put the customer first and businesses increasingly put the customer first and that's where they succeed. You know, you have an individual that comes into a business that sometimes is looking for a short-term financial hit. Then there are people that move into a role where they are looking to go for the right company. So for someone either because there's the prestige of working for a particularly big company and then you have people that look to come in at a smaller level and start building teams and then that satisfies them in their role is the mentorship and the player coach to be able to succeed. And so, you know, across the different spectrum there's only really one there that you motivate through commissions,paid structure, the others you put in place – the development plans, increased responsibilities, opportunities to change roles, travel, whatever works for them. I think you share the risk in terms of the commission, in terms of what they are and what their financial incentive is, by and large.
Margo: Yeah, that's quite challenging right now to work out the right structure to put customers first. So what would be your suggestion? Would you just get rid of the compensation plan and set a stable salary, a base?
Thomas: I'm not advocating that there is a complete removal of commission for every business and every role, you know, I can see times where, um, you know, it is important to incentivize people. I don't think anyone knows better. We just all know differently on things and I'm welcome to debate on that. But I think if you're, if you're trying to build a certain business in a certain way that is messaging around being customer centric and then you have a certain standard to come into that, oh, it's hard to weigh that up against a pure kind of commission. Speaking kind of from my experiences with recruiters in the UK now, I think it's very common that people fall often fall into sales roles because you know, they, they've followed a tracking or path in their life, whereas certain, you know, they haven't maybe specialized in terms of education and then they ended up in a sales role and they are attracted to that because there are a bunch of recruiters that often offer some ridiculously high targets and high OTEs.
Thomas: I think everyone could right now go and look on any type of recruiting website. I'd probably find a job that is 20,000 pounds a year as a salary and 120,000 pounds is an OTE and I would challenge that straight away that if you are a business that is hiring someone and giving them 20,000 pounds a year, whereas the risk for 120,000 pounds, is that individual realistically going to come in and earn that? Do the other people in the business 120,000 pounds a year? If they do, why aren't you just paying everyone 100,000 pounds a year as a guaranteed rate? Saving yourself some money. So I think there's a very bad bad perception in terms of sales and general sales roles and the culture that it does kind of lend itself to being money-motivated because it's kind of silly. Figures get bandied around and my concern with that as a leader is completely puts the responsibility on the individual and it also sets someone up to fail.
Thomas: So what I mean by that is if you're a business and you hire two salespeople and you give them a 100,000 pounds a year revenue target and each. So that's 200,000 pounds collectively, but as a business, you are only reporting into the business 150,000 pounds. You're either underselling the business and what you think you're going to achieve. Or you've got a couple of sales people coming in and you know that one of them is going to fail. And when you put someone in a position where they're likely to fail and that's when you start to develop a toxic relationships or bad behaviors, some of the bad practices that you have in terms of who knows who, who's, who's deal is who, and that's a, that very quickly kicks in and is one that's very hard to, um, hard to address. And that happens when you have individuals paid on their specific results.
Thomas: When you opened that out to a team and you share that responsibility. If you say, okay guys, let's bring a couple of people in and we will pay you as if you are going to earn this, then it's a shared responsibility of the business. The business has to make sure that it's got the right CRM system in place so that people can manage their pipeline. It's got the right products in place. If there is a demand in a particular area, then you've got the right tech guys in place that can build a product and then you've got that backed up by the right marketing, not having a sales person that comes in and they go, well, here's an Excel spreadsheet and that's a mobile phone, go sort yourself out. We're not doing any marketing. You are going to a portion of risk between the individual and between the company.
Margo: Right. So you probably refer to your previous experiences in different companies, so also just coming back to what you have experienced, so how do you measure success of your sales reps? What kind of metrics are you using for that? How do you understand there are doing well or when you have, when you know that you have to interrupt and coach them on better practices, find leakages in, uh, in the pipeline?
Thomas: Yeah, so I think the first thing that I always look for is complete transparency in a team and then also in a business as well. And then the moment that you start to see that there are a people keeping their cards a little closer to their chest or they trying to do anything to hide transparency. That for me is the only a red flag. So it's very easy to then try and open back up that transparency to the business. In terms of how do you measure people? I've come across a number of different times where I've been in roles or run teams where there's a numbers game and you know that there's a certain number of calls that you need to speak to a certain number of people and then out of those certain number of people you're going to close and if you're in that sort of role, that's very, very straightforward.
Thomas: That's very, very easy to measure someone. And to put that up on a nice big TV screen for all of the office to see where. It starts to get a little bit more complicated when you start to have some of these longer-term-deals stuff that takes a lot longer to close, needs multiple touchpoints in both businesses. And so rather than look at the targeting, what I always try to do is trying to get the complete overview as a sales leader. And I'm very fortunate in all of the businesses that I've been in, I've been able to take this approach that there hasn't just been that one cookie cutter example. I've been able to be like the swan, right, that sort of gracefully flows across the water while his feet are kicking away crazily underneath, you know, I, I always look to try and build something that is very quick, scrappy, dirty, low-risk, low-cost, and then also have those conversations which are the big deals which take a long time and then you normally find a belt in the middle somewhere which is still high value and a lower touch that kind of comes in pipeline.
Thomas: So I've always measured that on engagements. How engaged are we talking to people? Are we actually speaking to people? I'm a big fan of actually talking to people in this day and age. I think we do far too much stuff just over email. It's far too easy now to just keep firing out the same email to someone every single week saying, when can we catch up? When can we have a call? When can we have a call? When can we catch up? My biggest requirement I have with assessments that they're speaking to people. That's the only thing that I measure people on. They have to talk to people, talk to people, and they know what they're talking about. They're trained correctly and they've got the right attitude and right behavior in all of the other stuff falls into place.
Margo: So just having more meaningful conversations that's basically have a higher chance to convert to opportunities into customers, showing them the right solutions, showing them how they can reach that aha moment and reach their success first of all, because the products are made to respond to some need on the market. So this solution should be in correspondence to customers' needs and the customers' needs should be resolved by salespeople who offer the right solutions.
Thomas: With 10 years in ecommerce I have spoken to thousands of businesses, you know, some of the biggest in the world and some small mom and pop shop businesses and by engaging with those people, there are still people I bump into an events now that I know from 10 years ago. That engagement doesn't happen over an email, over a cold email. That happens from speaking to someone and having someone listen to what your concerns are or what your requirements are, and then either meet or say, okay, this isn't for us right now, recommend someone else to you because that all comes back to you in the end.
Margo: So it's very hard to scale these kind of conversations - you can't book 100 conversations and have it on a very high level to satisfy your potential customers. So we are entering a new era. Artificial intelligence probably will get a big chunk of the cake from sales people. In some instances is gonna just make their work more efficient. Being able to get some patterns from, let's say high achievers, people who do the best and transfer this experience to those poor achievers. Just finding departments, right behavior, what drives success and what helps sales reps close deals. So this all about artificial intelligence and all this robotic stuff. Do you think that's, at some point, sales reps will be substituted with artificial intelligence that will find patterns in, let's say customer behavior and serve them the best possible option without human interaction with the customer?
Thomas: Well, I think what we don't know is we don't, we have no idea what the job market's going to look like in 20, 30 years' time. The scale of acceleration that we have in technology. We really have no idea, but I think we can predict some things and we should look at what do humans do and um, and then that helps us understand where do the machines, where does technology take over? So it was as humans, we've got two abilities, right? We've, we've got physical and we've got cognitive. And so if you think in the past when we started to build the machines that would compete with humans, human skill changed and then it became, you know, our ability to learn, to communicate, to analyze, to use those machines. And actually we ended up creating more jobs and now we only know of two, those two fields of activities for humans.
Thomas: We don't know of any more, so the challenge is where do we actually secure the aging of our jobs when, when artificial intelligence, when technology catches up with human intuition, because at the moment we're very used to engaging on a personal level, but already we're seeing behaviors where we are having the conversations with bots on websites. We're perfectly comfortable talking to a speaker sitting in our house and, uh, having them pick the most appropriate music for us. I think that one way to look at that as we look at, well, you know, will always need a sales person. You always need someone in a business to reach out to someone because of the human element, because of the soul. But actually that human element that's really just recognizing a pattern and that's where AI starts to become interesting.
Thomas: That's where you start to see technology recognizing patterns, recognizing behaviors, recognizing inflections or intonations, inner voice or language within a query that is then able to address something in those concerns in a way that a human wouldn't. I think that's going to be a big challenge for us, and we really don't know what the job market's gonna look like in 20, 30 years' time, but we're increasingly more comfortable not speaking with people and once that starts to become automated and clever in how it can react to us in the same way that humans do well, that I think that probably becomes quite a big challenge. And as a business that wants to reach out to their consumers, how do they do that? And they're gonna continue doing it. Are they going to double down and do that via technology or are they going to, as you say, still have people picking up the phones and talking to people, which is a challenge to build a scalable business.
Margo: In my opinion, I think that's probably machines will not substitute salespeople. They will just assist them in creating the right context for customers. So let's say artificial intelligence, can identify which calls resulted in a closed deal and what was in those calls that's made those closing the deal successful. So they did a rep, use some specific language or like was more positive or probably spoke less than an opportunity who spoke more. So a sales representative could understand needs better. So this kind of things are hard to manage for sales leaders because it takes them so much time to analyze every sales call – from the first minute to the thirtieth minute. It is just too time consuming. And uh, artificial intelligence could just bridge this gap. And like it's just my opinion. I think that's artificial intelligence, machines can substitute sales reps just too some extent, but not fully because we need someone to talk to customers, don't you think so?
Thomas: Well, I might sound like don't put this as a headline of this podcast, but I would be, I would be worried, you know, 20 or 30 years time I can see artificial intelligence machines taking most jobs. I would be very worried if I was a doctor, I'd be very worried if I was driving a car and I would be very worried if I was in the service industry. And as we continue to see our phones ring and then not answer that phone and then text back immediately afterwards, "Hey, what's up?". I think that's when you start to say, well actually is as a sales organization, where do you draw the line? Because yes, you can use a number of technologies to analyze calls, but actually if you have one higher aggregated being that is all 100 of your sales people all at the same time talking to customers, then that will learn and recognize patterns quicker than one person reviewing any dashboard or any technology and trying to pick up the patterns themselves.
Thomas: I mean, ultimately that's what I think that will be our next... We're going very much off of a sales pipeline here because I think that's ultimately you want to, you know, very much one of our big challenges from humanity, right, is that, is that there is, we've always had that aspect of a soul, of communicating directly with individuals. But if we just recognize that as, as a, if we just acknowledged that as being pattern recognition and the number of hacks that we have in our brain to help get us around those patterns of recognition, if it does become kind of one big being that can recognize everything so much easier and quicker than any job that you're in, one aggregated view can perform better in, is going to be a worry.
Margo: That's a very futuristic view on things in sales.
Thomas: It's probably a bit to what it might be worth ending on is maybe kind of bringing it back to the here and now because I'm sending a lot of sort of presentations in podcasts and I hope this has been interesting for anyone that's listened. But you know, I always like to think of what are a few actionable little tips and insights that people can deploy right now. And so some things that I've read and found recently that I think have really worked for me and within our organization. One is more around the sort of general behaviors, which I think is very important. And that is the difference in terms of how we judge ourselves and how we judge others. And what I mean by that, why I think that's important is because when we're engaging with people individually and you know you catch someone at the wrong moment and that can have a negative impact on your day and then negative impact around your team.
Thomas: And actually what you need to understand there's maybe a set of individual circumstances that you're not necessarily aware of. Then we put that into context as a real example. If you're driving down the road and someone pulls out in front of you, you horn at them, you've probably stick a finger at them or swear at them, anything and thinking, "What are they doing? They're cutting in front of me." No reason. You have no idea why they were cutting in front of you. Maybe they didn't see the light. Maybe it's a genuine mistake. You are judging them and being angry with them directly on that action. The person in the car might well have a pregnant wife in labor, in the backseat of the car and they just jumped the light just as it went orange just to try and get across so they could get to the hospital a bit quicker and that meant that they flew in front of you and you'd beat the horn at them and that person in that car is thinking, well, "I didn't mean to. I'm in a rush here, come on, this is my, my wife was giving birth in the backseat of our car."
Thomas: And you see how those two different interactions, you know, how you're judging someone on their actions and really they're judging themselves on their intention. They didn't mean to. So I think that's one tip. I think another very quick tip that I like and this focuses around language is that you focus very much on the positive. It's very common that you see someone say, "Sorry, I'm late. Sorry I did this. Sorry. It's taken a while to come back to you over email." I always liked to try and spin that to say, "Well, thanks for your patience. Thank you for bearing with me." Let's not say, "Sorry, I'm late!" Because the only thing you're going to remember there is late.
Thomas: Let's say that, 'Thanks for your patience. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being a good person. Thanks. Thanks for being great, Margo, because I canceled it last minute, first time round, you know, thank you. Thank you for your patience there." And that's called something that it's a very useful book to read, is very short, easy English book to read called "Drop the Pink Elephant". You can imagine you can get that on most good bookstores. Have a look on price search. I'm sure you'll find one of our retailers selling it was called "Drop the Pink Elephant". And that is stemmed from the phrase that if I asked you to think of a pink elephant was the first thing you think of a pink elephant. Right? And actually this use of this unprompted negative is probably the biggest single floor that we demonstrate in our conversation.
Thomas: And that's really important for salespeople, why I think that's important for salespeople and is the trust that you need to have with your customer when you're a salesperson. So I don't want to gossip. I'm not being nosy. I'm not being funny. No one's ever been funny, right? I'm not gonna lie it many times. Have you heard that? I'm gonna be honest with you. Right? Okay. And does that mean that you weren't being honest before? Uh, you know, some of the most famous ones, right? There's, there's no cover up in the White House. I did not have sexual relations with that woman. Right? It pretty much did for Bill Clinton. This use of this negative actually stops at the problem and it fells to find the solution. So, you know, it's a little tip and takeaway for any sales lead and listen to that in your, in your sales team and your organization, how often is someone saying something that actually they could spin it round the other way?
Thomas: They don't want to say, you know, I'm not gonna lie to you. You know, that's not how you do it. That's a good book. I'd recommend I recommend the Pink Elephant book to read and then one that I feel is a common mistake is that salespeople tend to read a lot of sales books which tell you generally stuff that you might want to know, which is already know which is driven by the ego of the person writing the book and I like to kind of think a little bit out of that. I'd recommend what I read quite recently called "You are not So Smart" by a chap called David McRaney. The view that we've kind of touched a little bit on here about how the human mind kind of hacks ways of working and that's when you want to stand out you start to see some of the behaviors and salespeople.
Margo: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it actually takes a lot of time to coach your team on on this soft skills because it takes time to progress and to basically iterate on these actions. So you may know that that's a great strategy to use during next sales call, but sometimes when there is this flow of conversation, you don't take this action because you've forgotten or probably just has to come out to practice and a lot of iterations. So what is your message to, to coach the team in the right way so that they learn faster and they can implement it in practice?
Thomas: Yes. I get a big board in front of your sales team and write down all of the stuff that's important and then it's right there in front of their face. I still have a sales script sitting up on my desk. Do I ever look at it? Am I subconsciously looking at it? Probably when there are. And this comes back to what are the only questions around building that team of building out compensation plan. Someone's salary is based on them hitting numbers. Then they would just hit those numbers and reasonably so they're not going to be flexible. Why would you be flexible to learn something new? If you're doing okay hitting your numbers, you know as a sales leader, when you are not paying people for hitting that number, you're paying them for their involvement in the business and you're all working towards. It enables you to be flexible, enables you to say, okay guys and girls this morning we're going to have a training session.
Thomas: Okay, this afternoon we're going to do something different because what we're doing right now is okay, but I'd like to try a different level of communication. I'd like us to try a different target. Let's go and work to a different list. Let's go and talk about a different product. Let's go and see if we can talk to a different demographic and see what their feelings are about this and I'm not worried if we close any deals off the back of this. It's a learning exercise for us, so when you remove that financial incentive, you start to be a lot more flexible with your team and they're a lot more flexible with you and I think again, that's in a business to this customer centric. It allows you to think about what the customer wants and it allows you to adapt and always change accordingly.
Thomas: I've been in Pricesearcher for two years and pretty much led when I have lead all our outbound communications and talking directly with retailers and agencies and brands and I've already sold for different products. Five, maybe six and some of those have worked incredibly well and some of those we learned very quickly. That was not the right sort of products or the right sort of view and the only way that we did that was by talking to everyone and seeing how that works. One of one of the challenges that I've had in meetings is where you hit a whole bunch of people sitting around a table debating about which tier of customer they should go for and my view is that you go for all of them straight away, as quickly as you can, and then you start to see what works very, very quickly. But there's no point in sitting around working out which one you're going to target. You just have to try everything and then pick up and see what works.
Margo: There are no one-fits-all solution center market. I know a lot of companies, even huge companies, they have tried different approaches and some approaches didn't work in the beginning it was just a hypothesis, the assumption that something had to work, but then they had to pivot to find the right product market fit and just to find the right solution and satisfy the customers right there.
Thomas: Imagine you're a salesperson and you come into an organization on a very low base salary with a very high OTE and three months and you find the, you know, the company that bad decision and they're getting the wrong demographic. You now have not been paid anywhere near as as as much as you thought you were going to be paid and that's affected your personal life, your family and are suffering and you're behind in your mortgage payments. That's not cool. So you know, you need to be able to create something, whether you, whether you really have to draw down a line of some sort of financial incentive or whether you're lucky enough to be a business that doesn't need to do that and contained that flexibility you need, you know, you need to be fair to an individual and a team coming in. So that very quickly joined our process. Okay, guys, this isn't working. That's not a problem. We tried it. Let's try something else. I'm open to ideas or I have this idea, let's do that.
Margo: Yeah. It sounds like a plan. So could you give us a final advice for sales leaders who want to stay effective everyday who want to provide the right value for their team and also make them effective. How to avoid burnout and stay happy as a sales leader?
Thomas: Yeah. I had to say how to, how to avoid burnout from the start is that if you continually live hand to mouth on targets and you're not looking to evolve in a business, that's a very difficult position to be in. I think that I go back to my very first point really, I think if you, if you position yourselves as a sales organization and sales organization with hardened fast targets that is probably very hard to avoid burnout in a situation like that. I think you need to continue to grow. You need to explore new products, new countries, new territories, new ways of working with a team, find different dynamics. I think you need to be ever evolving. I mean, it's pretty basic stuff that I think most people, anyone listening to go, yeah, okay, fairly obvious. But uh, I think that people is obviously is a thing that a lot of people recognize that I think people do live very much hand to mouth targeted target month by month.
Thomas: And I think that the further away you get from day to day grind and month by month targets, the better you can, the more fun you can have a new job and the better you can grow and within that job in strategically how you can change. And that's where the big businesses have done really well. Right? Again, we talked the customer-centric businesses, just something like Amazon that they take a very long-term view. There are plenty of people in Amazon. You have a probably a very tough time working in Amazon and there's probably plenty of people that love it because they're in a role where they can always look at what's going to be like in five years, what are we going to do in three years? Where am I going to be? What are the plants in the business? That's the kind of stuff that I find gets me out of bed.
Thomas: Of course, this won't be a one-size-fits-all for everyone because we're talking about compensation plans. We're talking about some jobs that are jobs by numbers and there will be people that go into a role and they just want one year smash through the numbers, burn out and then disappeared off traveling, whatever. Then come back and rinse and repeat and do it again, but I think the more senior you often are in an organization or more senior that you intend to be and if you intend to bring your team up with you, that tends to be something that is is focused more around continual change, a continual evolution of the team.
Margo: Yeah. Who is listening to this podcast episode to have this approach and attitudes to the profession and being able to focus on the most meaningful things and avoid the burnout. Finally, so Thomas, thank you for this episode. It was great.
Thomas: Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed talking with you.
Margo: Thanks for listening to this podcast episode. If you enjoy our today's talk, please leave us a positive review on iTunes. It will help us reach more people with sales and marketing strategies. In case you want to enrich your knowledge with more marketing and sales tips, click the link in the description and download our free materials for this.
Margo: Thank you and goodbye.
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